- Document ID: 133735339
- Document Collection: 7.12 Karten aus dem franz�sischen Internierungslager Drancy
?
Memorial de la Shoah
Le Mémorial de la Déportation des Juifs de France
first time seeing: P.P - political Pole (i.e. prisoner category)? not sure here
see
also what could 243 mean?
edit: found it on the help site, but no explanation
P.P. could mean anything from „Prisonnier Polonais“ to „Préfecture Police“ or something totally different. I know that a couple of letters and acronyms are related to the deportation status, but there is no site where one could look it up.
As for the number ‘243’, it looks to me as if it had been added later.
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BTW - I just found the acronym P.P. on the card of a little girl who is clearly stated to be of French nationality.
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I saw „P.P.“ during the first workflow. It looked like a place of internment or a reference to one, and I entered it there.
2 examples:
I entered the red underlined 2343 as the departure date: 02.03.1943, which corresponds to the date in the sources (see the document here in the forum).
In Mendel Altmann’s card the number 243 looks like it’s the same handwriting and might (if the assumption is correct…) also be a date (02.43 = February 1943).
However, according to the above-mentioned sources, Mendel Altman is on the list of Convoy 40, departing on 04.11.1942, as is Hanna Braun (in Mally’s example). But this departure date is not mentioned in their cards. Perhaps there were changes, and they were actually deported later?
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I don’t think ‚243‘ is necessarily a date, because I found it on another card with a different pen colour (so it must have been added later) and it didn’t match any of the dates mentioned on the card.
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now the crads with P.P also coming in with a person, that is „stateless“
place of internement make sense.
what confuses me, if its the departure (243- Feb. 43) it would be in the example, but the departure is lefted empty (Hanna Braun - above)
To me, it seems plausible that „P.P.“ refers to the police here.
It could mean that the detainee was one of the Jews arrested by the Parisian police, possibly put into custody for a short time and then taken to the train station. That would explain why it is sometimes noted down in „lieu d’internement“,
quote: „[…] Une grande opération est planifiée. Son organisation est confiée à la préfecture de police de Paris (PP) et à sa direction de la police municipale. À partir du « fichier juif » de la PP, 27 400 fiches d’arrestation de Juives et Juifs apatrides (ex-Polonais, Russes, Allemands, etc.) sont établies.[…]“ (source)
„[…] le chef de la police de Paris ordonne aux chefs de police dans la ville de Paris ainsi que dans ses environs d’arrêter les Juifs de nationalité grecque. […] Les Juifs appréhendés sont dirigés vers les préfectures de police locales à partir d’où des autobus et une escorte sont sur place pour déporter les Juifs au camp de Drancy.[…]“ (taken from the details of convoy 45)
for further info:
The Parisian Police and the Holocaust: Control, Round-ups, Hunt (1940-44) (pdf)
[edit]
no words found…https://veldhiv.org/img/p1i10.jpg
But I never forget there were numerous members of the French police who warned citizens before a round-up, helped the persecuted or alike…)
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I agree with both of you: the entry „243“ remains ambiguous!
I found several again in date of departure (= February 1943), confirmed.
like in these cards of Joseph RECHNER and Bella REIS, both convoy 48, (13.02.1943) -
(full cards here and here)
But in even more cards with this number I did not find any direct reference to a deportee-related date (e.g. their names are in lists BEFORE Feb. 1943)
On the other hand: I haven’t seen any similar numbers so far (e.g. 245, 242…)
So it could be an administrative code for one specific process / category of deportees / …
@annabell.boerger
Do we take the entries P.P. and 234 into account when entering the data, and press the „Yes“ button before submitting the document?
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Thanks for sharing the document about the Parisian Police, that was a hard read yesterday. What strikes me, if we take into account how much people they arrested,
then we should see more of those remarks (P.P) or is it just inconsistent.
Good question and another remarkable point… 
(I’ll keep an eye on those cards, but will concentrate on indexing again.)
„hard read“: I agree. Knowing that the number of victims of World War II is incredibly high is one thing. Feeling the horror (in the face of these documents, fates, children, photos…) is even worse. (I’ll never get used to it.)
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@routebleue Exactly, please select “yes” in these cases too. This question really means any more information that is on the cards and could not be entered in a suitable field.
Maybe (hopefully) we’ll find out later what’s behind this information.
Have a nice weekend!
Annabell
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@routebleue same, will look more into people taken away after 16th and 17th July 1942 and maybe on the Convoi n° 7 en date du 19 juillet 1942
La majeure partie des déportés provenaient de Drancy et de la rafle des 16 et 17 juillet dans la région
engl. autom. translataion:
The majority of the deportees came from Drancy and from the roundup of July 16 and 17 in the Paris region.
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I reviewed the cards from Drancy that were shared and compiled a list of the 243 references — excluding those that are simply departure dates. What seems unusual is that these references appear only on the cards dated November 4 and 6 of the departure, 1942 (convoys 40 and 42) with one exception Epstein Sophie (released)
243 list below:
| nom | link card | depart | convoy |
|---|---|---|---|
| Bandler | here | 06.11.1942 | 42 |
| Franken | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Epstein | here | 06.11.1942 | 42 |
| Franken | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Alper | here | 06.11.1942 | 42 |
| Fong | here | 06.11.1942 | 42 |
| Fajnzylber | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Edelmann | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Cohn | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Epstein | here | released | |
| Altmann | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Braun | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
picture of the complete list:
I did the same for the reference ‚P.P.‘ but couldn’t find any consistency. I’ll share a short list with links to the cards, and a complete list as an image. I included professions, since my assumption was that if S.P. stands for sans profession , then P.P. might indicate the presence of a profession. However, I couldn’t determine a reliable translation for the abbreviation, and the data didn’t support that theory. So I dismissed that.
Still think it might be police-related in some kind, as assumed by the posters above
Here is also a child of a survivor (Schusheim) who is speaking about collaborating french police (here)
I remember visiting Paris when we were kids. My father pointed out the Hotel de Ville, the City Hall of Paris, where he spent six weeks in jail until the collaborating French police figured out that he was a Jew and deported him to Auschwitz.
| nom | link card | depart | convoy |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ravitzky | here | 11.11.1942 | 45 |
| Riznik | here | 06.11.1942 | 42 |
| Meyer | here | 02.03.1943 | 49 |
| Edelmann | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Orensztejn | here | 11.11.1942 | 45 |
| Moguilewski | here | 02.03.1943 | 49 |
| Pochtovik | here | 13.02.1943 | 48 |
| Wakermann | here | 02.03.1943 | 49 |
| Cohn | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
| Schusheim | here | 11.11.1942 | 45 |
| Trojanowski | here | 02.03.1943 | 49 |
| Travine | here | 23.03.1943 | 52 |
| Ryache | here | 13.02.1943 | 48 |
| Altmann | here | 04.11.1942 | 40 |
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